017 - Hot Menopause Summer!! - Three Women, Three Stories (one is an aging expert!)

💃🏻 Welcome to the mega 'season finale' episode featuring three personal and honest conversations about what menopause, aging, strength, and vitality mean to women facing this new era.
 
Join us as we dive into discussions of the changing mindset and deeper understanding and acceptance of menopause, aging, beauty, and mortality.

We also got jokes.

This hour long episode features the optimism and energy of fashion-exec-turned-writer Christine Morrison, the wisdom and deep knowledge of aging planner, Allison O'Shea, and the wit and honesty of long time close friend and creative powerhouse, Lydia Langford who pulls no punches.

Let's talk menopause! Let's talk fashion! Let's talk spider plants! Click play.

🐾

This  final episode of season one is dedicated to the gift that was Elijah Zalkin who graced our presence in this life for three beautiful months.

May his beautiful sweet soul rest in peace. 

Thank you Elijah.
 
😔

Written, directed, and executive produced by Chauncey Zalkin. Intro/Outro sound engineered by Eric Aaron. Photography by Alonza Mitchell with Design Consulting by Paper + Screen.

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We want to hear from YOU so if you want to be a guest, have a pithy but kind retort, or for business inquiries, drop me a line.

Actual People, a Podcast
www.chaunceyzalkin.com

Transcript

 We have reached the final episode of the first season of actual people. This episode is going to be a little bit different.  You can think of this as a super mega episode. It is not short, but it is worth it. I am talking to three different women: Christine Morrison  who left corporate fashion behind to pursue a creative dream. Alison O'Shea. A true expert and Sherpa in the field of aging.And Lydia Langford an n old friend of mine who is hilarious, incisive and pulls no punches when it comes to aging or anything else.  This will be my first conversation that has gone live with a close friend. There's a lot of humor a lot of great advice and insight.  I cannot wait to share it with you.  

 Welcome to Actual People, a podcast hosted by me, Chauncey Zalkin, dedicated to meaningful conversations about the evolving landscape of our lives and the power of our own creativity and imagination to make magic.  I've been wondering for a while now,   how do I want to get older? What do I want that to look like? The panic of finding a mate to procreate is behind me. Any career aspirations that have to do with pleasing a big corporate boss are behind me, if I ever had that, I have completely left that in the dust. I have watched my body morph into something  I don't recognize with, I admit a little bit of terror.  I didn't learn negative self-talk about my body from my mother who loved her body at every age. In fact, I think what's more telling is that every time she would state how much she loved her body. I thought, how dare she thinks she looks good as her skin gets looser and her hips get  wider.  Wasn't she deluding herself? Mind you, my mother has always been thin and people always marveled at  how amazing she looked  but the phrase for her age always hovered in the air because it is the end of most people's sentences when they comment on a woman's looks   even over 30.  It wasn't long ago that we were expected to run and hide behind a mixing bowl in the kitchen after we passed a certain age. That stuff gets internalized. 

My grandfather used to say human beings are the ugliest animal. I know he said it to provoke, but he's not wrong. Think about it.  Hairless cats and dogs  pretty creepy looking and we're hairless except for these weird patches of hair above our eyes and between our legs and under our arms and men have these weird patches of hair on their face. We all have nipples with bumps around them and cellulite, and we have toes, toes alone are so bizarre. Paws are more dignified. Our ears look like melted candles while other mammals ears look like beautiful foliage and fish have gills. You might be like, what the hell Chauncey. But really beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Norms are created by humans. And  Mostly male pale humans who have masterfully designed it so that they themselves are removed from such criticism  with their tufts of ear hair and male pattern balding, their beer paunches.  Male body changes are lovingly referred to as dad bod. Dad bod is a sign of rootedness and self-acceptance. Family. All things  we love, but we reluctantly accept about ourselves. Women are arguably much worse than men in our assessment of other women. Our criticism of other women, though, let's face it is self criticism. But at the same time as we grow older,  we stopped caring as much about what other people think.  We stop being attractive for men. That definitely slows down. The biological imperative alone has slowed down.  We've either found a mate and procreated, or we have not.  That doesn't let us wholly escape social norms. The beauty industry, med spas, and plastic surgery would collapse if it did.  We still have to relearn how we see ourselves. So I've been asking myself,  now that I'm not young and never going back to thong bikinis, how do I want to age? What will be my style of aging that is not one of decline. How do I slip into a new older me identity of beauty? A question that I've been pondering since the pandemic when I noticed my skin was a little bit looser and weight was a little bit harder to lose. Well, maybe a lot, bit harder to lose.  But I think I saw a clue to the answer this past week.  And it ties back to a couple of months ago. I noticed that I was more reluctant to wear eye makeup, which has always been a staple of my makeup routine.  I always wear eyeliner and now I feel like I might look better without it. I feel like I look healthier and less tired when I only have a moisturizer and some kind of shimmer or blush maybe over a light foundation.  All the women on reality TV with their 10,000 layers of goop on their skin. That's not for me so I've decided that I'm not going to pick that.    The real revelation came to me when I took a series of pictures with my daughters and saw the pictures afterwards. Often when I look at these vacation shots, I think, oh God, I'm kind of falling apart, all that yoga, and all those classes, what are they amounting to? 

But when I looked through those pictures this time, this is what I saw. I saw the eyes of my father. And I've passed down to one daughter and I saw the mouth of my mother that I passed down to another daughter.  I saw a deeper me.  Here's what I think the thing is. I feel like the best thing for you to do in defining your aging self is to go further into  your essence unabashedly.  .  I'm no longer,  a hundred pounds with tiny arms that I'm self-conscious about. I'm now 145 pounds with a tummy I'm self-conscious about. Same difference, right? Since I'm not trading on my looks  and I really don't care about impressing men, when I do find love. It'll be a whole new kind of attraction and relationship.  One that I've never had because I'm so long done with  the compromises I've made in the past. 

I have no idea what is on the horizon for me in love or not love,  but my main desire is to be alive and to be healthy and to be with my children and just be , healthy, healthy, healthy.  I mean, that's why I removed both breasts and my entire reproductive system when I was 45. When I found out that I was BRCA positive, it was to be healthy for the future. And I hope I can be that.   In my hot menopause summer,  the catchy title I thought of for this episode, I went to the beach, the mountains, both in my own state of North Carolina.  Next month, my kids go to their dad and I'm off on a 17 hour flight to New Zealand to see a friend of mine I've never been to New Zealand. And I'm so excited together, we will be going  on an amazing adventure,  sunkist with a few more lines and freckles on our face. These moments for ourselves are so important. Embracing this crazy time of bodily and emotional change. 

 So let's talk menopause for a minute the subject, which this episode is ostensively about.  What is menopause and why is everyone talking about it? Where it was once this hidden, unknown thing, kind of like women themselves, now it is coming out of the woodwork and people are paying attention to this time of life. and they're paying attention to menopause. And we're paying attention to women because we're paying attention to ourselves. So, what is it? What. What is menopause? What is peri-menopause? You think, you know, but it is so much more and a lot more than I know, and a lot more than I can cover in this next short description, before I launch into the episode.

 Perimenopause can begin  as early as a  woman's late twenties but it most often shows up in our late thirties. or forties.    And then you go into menopause. A lot of people in my peer group are starting to feel the effects of menopause.  I hear all kinds of stories. I myself take Estradiol which mitigates a lot of those symptoms. 

I found a website that talks about menopause symptoms, debunking a myth that menopause is just hot flashes and night sweats. Of course it's also weight gain and irritability, right? It's more than that. There's over 40 symptoms. The list read look a disclaimer  on a pharmaceutical commercial. But I'm going to read the list like it's an all-star cast. In a blockbuster film.   

Headaches, palpitations, feeling faint or dizzy, difficulty sleeping. Low energy, achy muscles, painful joints, sore breasts, weight gain around the middle, vaginal dryness and soreness. Loss of libido, urinary symptoms, dry mouth, sore mouth metallic taste, sensation like ants crawling over your skin which upon reading this, I realized I had this  I was very paranoid one night that I had bedbugs and I spent the whole night looking up bedbugs and possible causes   I also had this sort of prawning sensation around my eyelids and actually went to the ophthalmologist who acted like I was completely crazy. I'm convinced it was this symptom too. The male doctor did not even mention that this could be a sign of menopause.  Isn't that funny.  A lot of the medical community  especially older men, have no idea about the symptoms of menopause. Some of the other symptoms on this list of restless legs  tingling extremities tonight is allergies, body odor panic attacks. , depression, mood swings, loss of joy, poor concentration, brain fog, memory loss, low self esteem. 

You get it? 

It's a long list.  And that's what we've been going through  all through history and nobody has ever addressed it. And now all of these companies, especially women led companies are addressing menopause and it's super exciting.  . There have been  more books about menopause and just more recognition that this is actually a phase in our lives. 

 People are calling it the new puberty.  It's another phase of life.   Even though  it sucks in a lot of ways so did getting our period. So we should embrace it and we should create culture around it and community around it. And so without further ado, I'm going to start my interviews.

,   📍 First up is a woman named Christine Morrison. She writes for magazines about products that address aging. She's become increasingly more comfortable  in her own skin in our own choices, really showing herself a lot of self love and grace as she follows the dreams for the second part of her life. 

This is basically how our conversation started. Take a listen.

We went horseback riding in the rain and I was really trying to be  a pioneer person in my head. I was like, I can such a good mommy. I can ride a horse in the rain. I was like, that's how people got around. So it's just drizzling  and then it started really pouring and the guides were you know, if you want to go in, you can, they wanted to go in so bad, but I was like, Toughing it out , we finally went in when it was  pouring rain and it was cold rain, this is in the mountains  , it's not like a summer rain.

It was  raining cold outside. I'm like, why am I doing this? , but I was like, girls, do you want to stay out?  Yes.  And then it just started to really pour.  I got sick from that.  

Who wouldn't?? I'm surprised they didn't.

Are you in menopause?  . I  Might have not told you, 

I had a hysterectomy in 2017 or 18. I'm BRCA positive.   I take estradiol. But, you know,  every single bite I put in my mouth stays on my body.   Oh, oh boy.  It sucks. I work my ass off and, and I still need to lose 10 to 15 pounds. , and people are like, oh, that's nothing. But it is a lot for someone who's 5'1 who's never weighed this.

 So much of your identity is wrapped up in what you look like, because that's just society, but also how we were raised   it's hard.  

Aging has its ups and downs , if we only talk about the positive, the people below us are going to not believe any of the good stuff because they're going to be like, they're so full of it.

 I have something I'd like for you to maybe respond to. Okay.  I went to this cabin in the woods. That was the plan for the whole trip. But then I remembered that a high school friend of mine  actually, I met him in elementary school.  He's become a very loyal  fan of my podcast. . He listens to every single one.  We've known each other since fourth grade. he always was like that nice kid in school.  He and his family have just moved to Western North Carolina.  He said, if you're in the area, we have a yurt. You can just come stay with us. So I said , we're near Asheville.  He's like, come on over. He married his high school sweetheart, who was  a volleyball player, really athletic.  I was more artsy. We never really spoke.   I never had any negative judgments of her at all.  I was a little nervous, like, Oh, I wonder how she's going to feel about me.  She's like the nicest    instant comfort level.    I'm thinking now being totally friends with this person. She's awesome. He's awesome. The kids are awesome.  I was there for  four days with these people. Our value systems are all the same, totally aligned.  We're all  liberal and creative.  You learn so much over your lifetime about who you are and then,  you can be friends with people who aren't just like you.  You're not  so threatened that, Oh, my cool girl, artsy. I'm going to move to New York identity is going to be at stake.    These are people I'd be friends with 150 million percent. Yes and yet all these intervening years like they say, youth is wasted on the young,  and, hindsight is 20, 20, but 

there's such a reason why these  cliches.  Are so true  you're absolutely right. Like you said, your values and everything were the exact same.  And today you are so aligned with them.  I think  when we're young, we're fighting some of that to create our identity with pushing boundaries. You wanted to be an individual, you wanted to be unique , and not everybody does. There's big people who want to be way conformists

you found who you are and  like you said, they're not threatening to your individuality or your uniqueness and at this age, because  you're so, so firm in who you are.   It's  kind of a shame that when you're young, you don't have that comfort level with who you are. ...   Like you said, you would not have appreciated them because you could not recognize their good because they were threatening to who you wanted to become.  really weird, but it's true. 

Yeah. But something happens to us. Like, this is the good part of aging. As you get older,  I think you're happier.  I do believe you're happier.  And I don't think it's because you're settling.  People are just, you're just giving up or you're so like, you don't go out and have fun or whatever.

It's not, it's different. It's there's a peaceful happiness because you're so happy in who you are. You don't need all that extraneous bullshit to bring you the joy and also happiness. You do kind of learn is fleeting. You come in and out of it. So you find, joy and peace  you don't have to always be  excited, happy.

. You're just sort of like,  you're fine.  You don't need to be in the spotlight and having your heyday to have joy and happiness.

It's such a peaceful calm, and that is happy to me. When there's not the chaos and bullshit happening. Oh, I love it.  You can have a good time any day or whatever  but actual fun is when you  can't stop laughing.  I don't have that enough.  Not enough people have that enough.  We need more of that whether you're young or old.  We are so burdened by   Projects, family, commitments, expectations that we just can't get .   Over Easter, we went and played four square for like an hour and a half on Saturday in the park in North Carolina. I was at my inlaws. Oh, outside of Charlotte. My husband grew up in Concord, North Carolina, right outside of Charlotte,  very small town. And we went into a park and it was just one of those, gorgeous day, sunny, gorgeous.

And you probably had similar weather and we played four square. The four of us, my twins and my husband and I, and  We laughed. And I mean, the simplest, most ridiculous game, right?  I looked at him halfway through and I'm like, AF.  And they think we're thinking like, as fuck.  I was like, no actual fun.

We had actual fun. We didn't plan to go to their house  . I didn't feel good. I was like, uh, but even being sick,  just sitting in the kitchen with them, I'd be so excited to be able to talk to them about stuff that I didn't even feel that sick.

 I would have actual fun. Yeah, we did. We were just , oh yeah. And this, and this, and remember this , and talking about aging, getting older and wisdom  we were all so excited to have this conversation   we have all been through hard things. oh my gosh... So we don't have to pretend it used to be the conversation, not with them, but just in general,  I got a promotion or I started a business   - all the validations, right? At this point   I had a drinking problem,  I had a mastectomy, we are fine with that stuff, and then talking about meditation, or   healing,  trauma, , people are not trying to hide who they are   we're all human. , I learned things about them that I didn't know, and they learned things about me that they didn't know.  I found myself being like, I dated horrible guys my whole life. Right,  right.  people dress stuff up.

I didn't dress anything up. I had  horrible taste in men always.  but still , I like myself. Yes, because the validation comes from here, not all that other peripheral and so you can air your laundry and still feel really good about yourself.

Yes, it's so great.  You got to be perfect when you're younger.  I do feel for the younger crowd who is on screen on camera constantly  We had our own version of that. .   I was very ambitious. I'm like, I want to succeed in this way.   Me too,  I never succeeded in the way that I wanted to succeed. At least not yet. Jury's still out.   It can be painful to me now, but I don't mind talking about it.

I made a joke, , everyone I went to high school with is so much richer than me. ,  I think that they all are. , out of that conversation, one of the people I was talking to was like, Well, actually, it's not all what it looks like.

There's so much richness in the honesty.  It's great.  Yeah. I find that you can be honest with yourself as well as with other people, which is, you gotta be honest with yourself.  There's great things about my life  I'm really lucky and there's things that I wish were different.  

And I think that's human.   That we're 30, 40, 50, 70, even 80 you're always striving to be evolving.  That's life. And if you're not,  

then you're done. 

 You might as well be done. You're cooked., yeah, you're cooked.  

I pray that people don't lose their curiosity with age 

 I am turning 55 in three weeks. 

Congratulations. 

Thank you so much.

 How have you changed or evolved,  in the last five years since turning 50? 

I'm much calmer.  In the throes of  menopause  I was experiencing. A lot of rage and hot flashes , tons of inflammation  my nutrition was going haywire. 

I learned a lot about myself about  how to handle it through my  incredible doctor. ,I did get a great nutritionist.  I'm kind of through the hard parts. I did go on HRT.  I'm at peace with who I am. And I would have thought I would have been more so at 50 than I was.

 Around 47 when menopause hit,  it threw me for a loop  I was  trying to break in and make a difference in writing.  I was still in the throes of trying to establish myself  but now, even though I have so far to go, based on what my goals are,  and I have a lot of aspirations, but. I'm just calmer and happier and at peace with myself and my life,  as a result, my family is happier because they see in me.

I'm just not panicked about getting things done or being who I need to be.  Things happen all in due time. That's one thing also about the aging.  I want to become an author and I want this book to sell,  but , I know it'll happen when it's supposed to happen.  

 What are some things that you're   into right now that  you weren't into five years ago ?   How would you describe your era?

  One of the things that I  continue to be excited about, I've been doing CrossFit for about a little over a decade, but I continue to be excited and to say to myself, challenge yourself to do different physical things.

 I joined a tennis team this season. I'm not good. And I don't care that I'm not good because the women are kind, my coach is kind, but it's just, I need to flex a different muscle. I'm still crossfitting, but I need to do something different and it's outside. So I need more nature, I need more vitamin D, and I need a social, like my CrossFit is with the coach.

Um, I need more socializing because what I do as a writer,  and then as a parent, you know, it's very isolating and I've been isolating for a long time  so I'm trying to be more social. That's one thing I am trying to be because we're not very social as a couple or as a family. We stick together. another thing is  I'm saying yes more to just random travel. Like we are getting in an RV in Bozeman, Montana in midsummer and we're going to drive all through Yellowstone, Jackson, fly fishing, Grand Teton,  awesome for weeks.   I want to explore more.  I am physically strong. I can do a lot. I wanna  explore, especially since I have these boys for four more years under my roof.  We ski and we're not beach vacation people because that's a lot of sitting around. We'll go to the surf camp or we'll ski, but we've gone to Europe , but this is   different, you know, it's just unique. , just saying yes to more things, getting outdoors, being a little more social. And I'm trying to give myself a little more grace ,  I  have had to let go of  being , really thin.  That was always the thing. When I worked at Calvin, you always wanted to stay  super thin so you could  wear the sample clothes. . But you've had to let that go with menopause, 

It doesn't even matter about the weight. It's the shape shifting. 

I think that looks  weird on an older person to be very rail thin.  

I don't aspire to that as much anymore because. It to me says frail and I want to  be strong.  

 I have to continue to scare myself with writing. just put myself in really more frightening situations. , I'm going to pitch something to Linda Wells, which is  scary to me  I feel like I'm just getting started. I have been writing since 08, when I left Calvin. What is this? Oh my god, that's,  that's 16 years.  But it's been the past  five to six that have been really strong. The past three have been like on fire.  There's so much momentum. , I'm just getting going.  Meanwhile, print fell apart, which is fine because there's plenty of opportunity and I've got lots of ideas and my writing gets better because it's a muscle, you know, the more I work.

you have twins too.

Mine are ten.  For some reason when we get home, I don't sit down until after,  they go to bed.

I stand up, I'm  cooking,  I'm telling them to put things away. , I'm tired. 

  how do you decompress at the end of the day?  

About nine years ago, I stopped drinking and I just, I went to a Christmas party. At the CrossFit gym and had like tons of holiday cheer and I did not feel good.

The next day, my kids were five, my twins were five and I woke up the next day. I did not feel good.  I felt horrible.  I couldn't get over the hangover for like two days.

I probably had six drinks. That's a lot. And I was like, I'm not going to drink anymore. I want to see what it's like for next year. And my husband's like, okay, we're not big drinkers anyway. We're not huge socializers.  I did it. And after three, four months, he's like, have you had a drink? I'm like, Nope. And he said, Oh, wow.

Okay. And I said, I'm going to go all year. And I did, I didn't miss it. What the few times we did go out with other couples or dinner party, whatever lemon water or lime soda water. Didn't miss it. , I had just as much fun.  And then I was like,  this is unnecessary sugar, calories. I don't need this  Next. I sat down with Alison O'Shea who. Consults people on 

how to plan the  second or third chapter of their life so that they. Or not blindsided by the aging process. Here's what she had to say.

I want to talk about reframing. What it means to be this age.  Used to be,   we were put out to pasture, a mixing bowl in the kitchen  in our muumuu and slippers after the age of 40, right?

Right?  Yep. And,  tell me a little bit about  your background and how you decided to start this consultancy. I got my degree in what is called therapeutic recreation I ended up getting my first big girl job as an activity director in a memory care community.  60 people that all had different types of dementia.  That's where I got introduced to senior living in the world of aging  very quickly from there, I became an executive director within the senior

living world and my last building 20 years later was, what they call,  a continuum of care. So I had independent living, assisted living and memory care. And so there was 200 residents, 100 and. 30 associates and then the families and so it was a big world.  I was already kind of at a point where I was starting to be like is this really what I want to do?

 It was after COVID that I really was like, okay, time to figure this out.  When I thought about , what I loved about what I did and what I could totally do without, I loved educating families.

A lot of people would come into senior living and just not understand  the industry, the world of aging. And so being able to tell them, you know, what's normal, what's not normal. , and that's where Openly Aging was founded. I wanted to take all the knowledge I have and just help families walk this journey,   half of the residents that came to me in assisted living, if they had done things 10 years earlier, they would not have been there.

And I truly, truly believe that. I believe. Wow. Doing so much more to keep ourselves out of needing higher level of care. It doesn't have to be part of the journey. And so that's what I do is I help  aging individuals who want to get ahead, just understand how their finances work with the aging world, what they're able to do, what they're not, what can we be doing today to stay independent.

And then of course  I help families, you know, maybe mom's already on the railroad tracks of aging and crisis is coming up and I can help navigate that. But my ultimate goal is to stay out of crisis. And that's what I try to do. 

  How young do you start talking to people about this stuff?  Nobody wants to talk about dying or assisted living  how do you talk to people about  what they're going to do over the next 30, 40 years of their life? 

At 45 years old, we can start thinking about what does my retirement going to look like? You know, where do I want to retire?  Or am I going to volunteer? Is this the time that I can fulfill this passion of mine and sell my artwork? I think it's just being, or start your own business. Or start your own busines!. Yessss I I'm finding in my peer group that a lot of people are wanting to work for themselves  they're in that chapter where they're leaving a legacy in their career  you're no longer trying to please this corporate boss and climb up a ladder.

You want to self actualize, which is something that used to belong to, , your twenties,   I want to become who I am, but after a long corporate career. or answering to other people's needs, women might want to do something for themselves.  What do you find when you're talking to people who are in their 40s and 50s about how should I be thinking about  my fifties and sixties so  I can have a   reduce stress rest of my life and also have an exciting life. Why do we have to be declining?  

What I tell people is changing the mindset.

So I think you can agree with me that in our society, we have this  goal of youthfulness  but. Our age is our age. It's only going up. So it's this idea of, okay, we're aging. We have to acknowledge that we're aging. We have to meet ourselves in the moment that we're in and be okay with the moment that we're in and not always try to be younger, but living where we are now.

I think if we change that mindset about ourselves, we automatically enter Into  this time of our life, more positive and willing to say, you know, what, I am an amazing person. I've made amazing choices and I am ready to live this part of my life the best way I can live it  that's how you stay out of higher level of care is a mindset. Taking care of yourself, but not just exercise and diet, we all know those things, but it's a positive mindset. It's entering into this phase, owning it, ready to take it over and make it the best it can be for you but you have to know who you are. You know, we talk about leaving. I left a corporate job.  Consulting. Well, there are some risks in that. You know, my finances changed due to that decision. You know, if I had been on one track, you know, my retirement might feel a little more secure  than it does right this moment as a business owner. You have to think about that, but what am I gaining out of this is flexibility, Being able to do everything that I want to do. And I love doing, which is so healthy for my brain. Making changes at certain times of our lives is actually the best thing we can do for our   cognition. Stagnation is what kills our brain. And so what I did by becoming a business owner, something I've never done before is  I've lit up parts of my brain that for 20 years were never really lit up because I was doing the same thing every day. 

And so I think it's really important in our forties and our fifties as very awesome women who are smart, we are assertive, we are who we want to be, or we're working toward who we want to be is to make changes that feel right. And just go for it, take the leap, do it if you're able to, because what you benefit from it is  ... going to only help you as you age because your brain's working in a different way than it's ever had to work before. And that's what I think we can do at this phase of our life is try all the things we wanted to try, do all the things we've always wanted to do and just do it because that's how we're going to keep our brain healthy.. 

 Those, , alarm bells get louder as you get older, because you know, your time isn't forever. it's like  pushing little hotspots in your brain.  this feels wrong. This feels right. You can't just , tell yourself,  one day X, Y, Z, because one day is now.  What are some things that you feel people can do or have done to change that mindset which is  so deeply embedded what is that image that we can create for ourselves where we are not just acceptable, but amazing and maybe even better than we were?  I got my degree in therapeutic recreation. I went to school for four years to talk about recreation and leisure. So that being said, I think it's when we say, you know, what is that best version? It is the version where we feel we are living a purposeful life where   we wake up every day having a purpose, having a reason why we're here.

That's the secret sauce. When I worked with people in memory care communities, that was always  let's find purposeful activities, folding napkins, I'm setting a table. I know that's really like jute bag at the same time,  but that is what fulfills us as human beings is  we feel our best when we feel a sense of purpose.

I mean, I'm sorry I laughed because, you know, in Buddhism, when you're washing dishes,  the act of  sweeping the floor  all these things this is the truth about life  maintenance of your environment and pride in your appearance and pride in your space is the fundamentals of life.

It's not  the promotion  the book deal,  it really is those everyday things   tying your kid's shoes or. tying your mother's shoes it's that stuff.  We rescued a dog that we just had to put down  we had the dog for exactly three months, but we found the dog on the street and we gave him end of life care.

And that was a very meaningful experience. And those reasons to be alive are really not those milestones, but those everyday things. Folding the napkin,  you're preparing a meal or  you're providing it for someone else because you're setting a table for others.

And so it really is a very simple idea, but that is what keeps us healthy. That is how we should live our life  if you can look today and feel like,  what am I giving to the world? Then that's. Sign that it's time to maybe start looking, you know, what is that special thing that you could bring to the world that is very unique to you?

 And then , you know, how do you monetize it? Or , if money is not the thing, how do you bring it to others so that feeling of purpose becomes your motivating factor, you know,  because that is truly As humans, what keeps us engaged in the world around us, healthier, , youthful, not in age, but in action, alive, vibrant, alive, yes. 

 It would be a shame if we ascribed importance only to people who are under 30, because those are really fraught years of a lot of stress, honestly.  Don't really know where you're headed. You don't know what you're doing, you're trying to find a mate to have children, or you're navigating parenting, or you're navigating choosing not to have a child and your career, you get over a certain hump  over 40, I think is the hump really, where you feel more comfortable in your own skin. Yeah. Or ready to  make some decisions.   You would ask me at 35, would I be doing what I'm doing today?

I would say, no, I'll be a regional executive director that's where my career is going. And then 40, 39 years old, I was like, oh crap, I don't really want to do this anymore. Maybe because it's a little more ego driven, maybe, or what is expected of you. Like, oh, I'm a leader, so I'm checking this big box.

Exactly. And you know, our generation too grew up under parents who you worked for the same company, you know, forever. So we have a little bit of those ingrained values in us.   One of the hardest  was leaving the title of executive director because it felt like such a description of who I was. I felt an identity in it. I was proud of it for so long. I had worked hard to get to it. And that was one of the biggest hurdles I had to get over when I made my life change was,  Oh, who cares?  All right. You can hide behind those kinds of titles. Totally!, what does that even mean to me? It has nothing to do with who I am. I mean, it shows that I'm operational minded.  I could put why that title described me, but if you don't know me, that title doesn't describe anything. So  that, but it was interesting. I didn't expect that hurdle to  hit me as hard as it did.  Well, I like that honesty, but, and also it's true.

Executive director is not you.    It helps you in that role to designate what your tasks are, but it's not more than that identity. Yeah. 

 If people felt like they  were comfortable being in a new phase and they weren't so scared and associated it with death, or even if they were more comfortable with death, then this stuff wouldn't be so hard.

It would just be another milestone, like getting married or having a baby or graduating from college.  After your empty nest, you have a whole new great chapter that's interesting. And just as, amazing as the other ones,  as long as we're not sick  then it wouldn't be so hard to have those conversations.

It sounds like what you're seeing more of is people having difficulty having those conversations,  nobody wants to go into  a nursing home.  You said earlier  if they had had this conversation 10 years before, they wouldn't be in assisted living. What did you mean by that? 

I think   assisted living can be avoided. Now there's certain diagnoses, of course, you know, dementia is a tricky one, any neurological, like a Parkinson's, those are tricky, but The minute you get those diagnoses, you do something about it.

And that's how you stay out. But yes, I think  it's kind of this  train track and eventually you get to this depot, if you will, which is the assisted living. And I just think that's so crazy.

today we need to be keeping ourselves active. Mobility is your biggest asset. And so you need to be working on it today in your 40s and 50s to have healthy habits when it comes to mobility. A walk a day will save you. So many years and it will keep you out of assisted living. So doing that today is so important. Like I said, stagnation, we need to make changes so  our brains are healthy. It's just like an organ. It's like your heart. I hear a lot of people, Oh, I do crosswords every day. Well, that's great, but you're still using one side of your brain. Like it's still the same part used every day.

What else could you do to  fire it up? So I just think if we have a mindset of I'm never going to assisted living, I'm going to do everything today as a 40, 50 year old woman to  keep my health and make sure that I have this really positive aging outlook on life. You will stay out of assisted living.

I mean, it's just the truth. People that ended up in assisted living is because they did nothing to prevent it. They weren't exercising.  They weren't making any plans. They were in a home that they should have moved out of 10 years earlier because it didn't make sense anymore. What does the home ownership or the home size have to do with it?

It's tricky because people stay in homes that are not, set up to age in. And so you  you stay in like this one corner of the house and you're upstairs is never used. You're wasting tons of money on upkeeping of a house that. Really? I look at it from a money standpoint. Aging is expensive. 

Oh, and then, oh, well, we don't have a mortgage. Yeah. But how much are you spending on ,lawn cleaning, is the AC about to break? Like how old is this house? Do you need a new roof? Like it just doesn't make sense to me. A lot of times when people stay in homes for 50 years,  I'm a homeowner and it's so much work. I don't even, oh my God, I wish we had a apartment, a condo or something.  like, oh my god, a yard.. Sometimes I get really into it and  I have some and come mow the lawn, but it's not enough.

I have  a tree trying to grow outta my bushes  at a weird angle. I'm like, what tree is that?  Exactly.  My tomato plants have become like monsters crawling all over my yard now. I'm like, Oh, I'm trimming it.

And then like three days later, but the one rain, it's like,  it is so hard to keep up a home.  I have two kids. I'm a single mom, but in my sixties and seventies, like absolutely not. I nothing to do with it. And the other thing too is how isolating it can be. So social engagement is also one of the cornerstones of healthy aging. 

You have to have social engagement and you have to know how you socialize. , if you're somebody who loves, you know, um, committees, or if you are in a group, you're always kind of the leader or the organizer, you recreate in a purposeful way, but you're a volunteer. You like to volunteer. You have a reason for being there and that's great. You should know that about yourself. That's how I socialize.  Other people are really just social recreators.  So they love a book club, card games, you know, they don't need to be in charge they'll just arrive and, you know, bring the fun. And. So knowing that about yourself is also really helpful as we age, because we want to make sure we recreate in the best way and we can start that at this age to learn how we recreate. So as we get into our aging journey, which can get isolating, our worlds kind of get smaller, we're going to be ahead of it because we're already going to have a good social network because we know how we socialize. Um, Oh my God, I want, I want some tips  what's your tip on how to become social in a way that fits your, ...  social style.   I would say you're probably more of a purposeful socializer where you, cause you doing this, like you want to bring messages to people. , you like people. You want to talk to the masses, but you want it. You're kind of organized with it. You know, podcast, you're very motivated.

Like, so for you, volunteering is probably going to be a great avenue for you to meet any social service clubs, like I'm part of the rotary. I love it. They give me volunteer stuff to do all month that I can pick and choose. But I'm also meeting a group of people in an organized way.

Yeah. I like social things where I'm helping individual if it's fundraising, like I won't do it. Okay. I'm not picking up the phone and asking for no way. That's just not me for me.  Networking. Like I'll go because I know it's good for my business, but that's awkward for me sometimes. Kind of breaking that ice. Once the ice is broken, I can talk to anybody. But I know going in, all right, Allison, you've got this, just go, you know, and, but I know that about myself  because I know how I recreate. So I'm able to then say, okay, my goal today is to meet two people, have honest, you know, have good conversations with two people.

And so I make it kind of a goal to get me out there. So. Knowing how you recreate is actually a very beneficial thing in life. That's really interesting. I love that you, you've studied recreation.  Let's have a whole other podcast about that.  Like my grandmother always said, I'm not a joiner.. And it's too knowing how independent you are, you know, you don't want to be tied down other than your children, and they are, you know, And my pets.

Yeah, yeah. I still have three pets left after this. I'm like a mother hen  the top of the pyramid of  lots of others. Oh, do you have any management experience?  Aside from my career. What? I run a household with two kids and two cats and one dog now. 

Anyway.  I think this is great I think what you're doing is awesome  there's so much here. 

If you have anything  last things you want to say about  shifting your identity to feel , beautiful and to  reframe what it means to be a person and a woman .  

You know, it's finding the,  got to like yourself at all phases.

But I think that's part of the purpose. You know, if you feel like you're living with good purpose and you're kind of where you're supposed to be, then all of that other stuff does kind of melt away because I  feel like there's a reason that you're getting up every day. And I think that's how we age successfully.

Yeah. And also becoming okay with, with death.  Yeah. , you know what I tell people? Like you need to be able to say, when you get into your eighties, I'm in the last chapter of my life. There's nothing wrong with that  we need to find a way to be okay with it.

Right? There shouldn't be shame in aging. You know, I tell people when I do a lot of talks, if you fall, tell somebody, don't hide it. Because if you fall, that means you need physical therapy. There should be a whole checklist. Whoop, I fell. Let me start this, this, this, and this, , I don't want that to happen again. It's like this idea,  we have to hide everything about our aging. Even when we're in our forties and fifties,  like you said. That shame is just part of our societal view of aging. And that's what we need to change. 

  

  📍  Hello, Zoom user.  I'm here. I'm here.  I'm sitting down today with a lovely Zoom user.  My name is Zoom user. It's because you have no personality that you just had to name yourself after whatever app you're using. When you introduce. It is, it is. You're like , Hilton guest is what you call yourself when you're at the Hilton, for example.  It's very sad. 

So, lydia Langford. you are a long time friend that I haven't seen in 10 years. You know, or close to 10 years. My kids were babies when I saw you, but we have been in pretty constant touch and you live in Europe and I live in North Carolina and I'm doing mom duty.

Another thing about us is that I grew up in Miami and you love Miami  and you grew up in Massachusetts and New England and I love Massachusetts and New England. We have  this admiration and love for the opposite place of where we were both raised and we met in Miami working at Crispin, Porter, and Bogusky an ad agency. Yes. And you, return to Miami often to get sun. You love sun and you love the sun.  I'm in Germany and I'm in Berlin,  which is very gray city , like our friend Danny used to say,  another dank European city.  Yeah.

Another dank European city, although that's very vibrant in other ways, . And even though everybody's always like, Oh, it's all the beautiful people. And you said, like by the Delano shirt, I think there's pockets of that but to my eye, Miami was incredibly diverse in every way, body type, nationality, attitude and more mixy than  most other cities.

Yeah, fat, skinny, tall, short, black, white, brown, red, green, whatever. Well, I think New York is more mixy, but I, yes, I grew up with that diversity and I never am okay without it.  That economic stratification for me was more  obvious in New York,  

I don't have children.  Let people know that

 When you're a mom, you're kind of like in a little bit of a prison, a nice prison, but you're in like a little bit of a prison and your life is very circumspect. Would you say that? 

Um, I would say, I would say circumcised.  Yes, that's the right word.

 A quick note to the listener. The word I was looking for here was circumscribed, not circumspect and certainly not circumcised., I'm trying to ruin your podcast.  That's good. That's what it kind of needs.  My podcast is a little too serious and I'm not that serious. So maybe you can help  expose me for who I really am. Okay. Not smart. Not particularly, but okay, I do my best. So,  let's, we're talking about perimenopause and menopause, or I don't really understand the difference exactly.

I think it's, I really don't understand the difference, you know, I feel like I don't even understand what menopause is. But  you're 49, I'm 51.   I'm on  estradiol, so I don't have all of the symptoms other people have. I also  like to,  take responsibility for everything. Like, why can't I lose weight? I should be able to do this better  yes. I can imagine that would be frustrating. Yeah. I blame everything on other people. Yeah. Oh, that's a good, I'll try that. I'm kidding. I don't blame anything on other people, but I  acknowledge the physical component. I hate all this separation of mind and body,  anyway, I can quickly tell you the difference  as I understand it, which is perimenopause is the 10 year window of time leading up to menopause, which marks the  total cessation of having monthly periods. and being fertile.  I just meant what is the difference in the, symptoms?

Apparently it gets better. I just read this today that perimenopause is the most symptomatic part of the journey. That's the real volatile Rocky road. And once you're in menopause, it gets better, but maybe that was a weird take. I don't know if that's true because everyone's always complaining about menopause, but I think they're really complaining about his perimenopause.   Let this just be an example of how confused everyone is. You've got two smart ladies who google a lot and we still don't know what the fuck is going on. 

we become more comfortable in our own skin  and at the same time, we're going through these things that make us vulnerable and anxious.

So let's just start with what are some of the symptoms that you're having? And then we can talk about your theory about why  these opposing forces  are  happening. 

Right, got it. , the symptoms I'm having are brain fog, rumination, anxiety, insomnia, low mood, and those kind of all happen not all the time, but  I have insomnia and I'm ruminating.  I'm anxious, and that's putting me in a low mood. They kind of all dance together.  I don't have a lot of physical symptoms, however, all of those things, which we experience at different periods of our life feel very physical in a way that they haven't previously.

So previously they've felt situational, previously they've felt  like external things are causing them, and now the call is coming from inside the house for sure. My old tricks that used to snap me out of a low mood or  cope with anxiety or stop incessant worrying , or even put me to sleep do not work anymore.  I've kind of mapped them out on my monthly cycle and there's a pretty, clear logic to when they're  strongest and why.  The luteal phase is a nightmare.  So what is your theory ?

My theory as to why menopause exists, because why would nature and or God, or whoever made us, Prometheus?

Why would they put in this hideous phase and have us live so far beyond our fertility, like whales, and it's because we're probably supposed to be, in my opinion, a matriarchal society, the grandmother hypothesis where we are  more led than we currently are by the elder women in the tribe and therefore menopause to me is this very critical transition to go through to break us. You know the loving, caregiving, people pleasing characters in humanity that we are, up until this point, to break us from all of those behaviors that we've been prisoners of until now, some more than others, but dressing for the male gaze,  being compliant, prioritizing everybody else's feelings  which is not to say every woman will turn into some total dominating sharpshooter after this, but I feel all of those things falling away. My bandwidth, my tolerance for BS,  which was never terribly big, it's like zero now. Yeah, me too.  I don't go to things I don't want to go to. I don't apologize excessively. I'm shedding a lot of guilt which used to govern a lot of my choices. 

Yeah.  The people pleasing has really left the building.  We're no longer doing the unpaid emotional labor. You know, again, how much of this is shifts in society and how much of this is stage of life? I think it's probably a combination of both. One might even be  illuminating the other.

 I still care what people think, but I want that to be something else now. I can't be bothered  with  bullshit situations, not interested. 

Maybe because life is short, and we only have a finite amount of time left?

 Nobody can afford to like, not shuck and jive for the almighty dollar, but even in the jobs I'm pursuing or accepting,  I say no to a lot of stuff because I'm just like, oh, no, it's gross. 

I don't want to do it. And I never was like that. I was working in New York City for decades  selling myself through as unlimited energy and bottomless  pit of ideas. I can do everything as a jackknife. Forget that. I am a single blade knife at this point.  The best. So what, you know? 

I'm eliminating a lot of what I can do  and manage, but it's just not worth the headache . Why would you , if you're creative or if you're human.

 It's just sort of symbolic of a bigger thing. You have to narrow things down because  your time is limited, too. I think it is a little bit of a survival instinct. 

What we're talking about is specializing, but adjacent to that is having the confidence to really stand in, first of all to identify, and then stand in what you do well, and what you want to do. I never felt  safe  in doing that up until this point and I'm still not safe in doing this now, but fuck it. Right. I was always like, I can do that, oh, copywriting, I can do that, account planning, I can do that, creative, I can do that. And none of it, you know, some of it was moving up, but a lot of it was pretty lateral  and you know, giving everybody more for less. That's a shitty business plan.  I do think men get here faster.   Society is set up for men to specialize. This whole myth of women being good at multitasking. That's a myth. There is not one neurological study that supports that women are better at multitasking; we just have to. Men can  monotask because there's a wife at home  doing everything else. Men can monotask because they are allowed to be assholes. Women are not allowed to monotask,  so we multitask. That does not mean we are better at multitasking.. I completely agree. We agree on a lot of things.  It's always been  a source of comfort to me that we agree on these nuanced things and also you put me in my place when I come out with a very  unilateral way of thinking about something.  And I appreciate that. I appreciate that as well. But  let's switch the topic  let's shift downward a little bit and  talk a little bit about beauty and sense of self and personal appeal  and the style in which  we were going to go into a new phase of life; when we were  a little younger in our thirties, we would joke about how we would age, and  it was like insulting each other in a fun way.  Usually women are like, Oh, you're going to be great. And we're like, no when you get older, you're going to have like lots of spider plans that are dusty and other things that we can't mention here, but it was just really funny different scenarios, they were not very flattering scenarios and they were, it was not goals. It was not goals, but it was, it was not goals. I mean, nobody wants a dusty spire plan. Yeah, fear based projection.

Right, and also because we, we are so ageist as a society and we were, like, joking to relieve the tension of what it would be like if we never found that mate or we never, all these  you know, things that we had to have for some reason that we, you know, there's so much pressure in your 30s. It's like, no, you're going to end up alone in Queens with a soiled couch.

Yes. Or on the Upper West Side with the spider plants. So no one understands what we're talking about. That is fine. So now that we are like, closer to those ages  have you thought about , What kind of aging style? I'm thinking  , like teenagers  goth or rock or pop or a blonde or a bob or, you know, I'm really thinking about it that way. , how do I move into this era? My hot menopause summer. You're talking about  beauty and style choices.  Yeah.  Through the ages. The vibe, the vibe.

I do respect, I respect everyone's right to completely give up, throw in the towel and just ride this thing till the wheels fall off. Valid choice, gorgeous choice, here for it all the way  I kind of like that in a lot of ways, honestly. Yeah. If you, that makes you feel good and you're happiest going that route, by all means, I could very easily choose that option.  I do think older women are beautiful and there are approaches and choices that that should be considered if somebody takes pleasure in presenting themselves to the world and themselves with intention. 

Yeah. So  how do you picture yourself aging? A friend had an app that can  show your face in the future with different hair, and I have decided that if the quality of my hair holds up, I'm going to be one of these long hair, old ladies. 

Um, so we'll see if it doesn't. I love Betsy Johnson.  Mm hmm beauty choices.  She's someone who has really maintained an iconic persona based look in my mind. I love how norma kamali  has stuck to  style choices that served her in younger years and that continue to serve her now. 

These are lipstick driven choices. Well, you know, I feel like,  so the face is going to go, the face is going to collapse, and all of these interventions, some of them yield better results than others. It's all awfully expensive.  Personally, I think the architecture is really important. So if your teeth are getting worn down.

Maybe build those back up. I love, I love a well kept mouth  on a person of any age. I have, I have quoted you several times about the, that you think the lower face needs to be organized, which is the thing I'm struggling with, is the lower face being organized. It doesn't need to be. I can imagine wanting my lower face to be organized, not having a bunch of like  dripping and trapping, but it's all sort of desperate, you know, like.

Yeah. Like. Let's see. Enjoy the journey. Your face is your face, but again, I don't want to push my values on all of these options. We all make a choice for ourselves. Yeah. Make a choice for yourself.

Let's please not be critical of each other. But, um,  somebody once said the more disorganized your face gets, the more organized your hair has to be, you know, these all older women who have these amazingly constructed  hairstyles.

I love that. I love that. I love that.. I've always admired that, like a very architectural bob, I've always wanted a beehive. That was my goal when I was young.

. It was very impractical and I never made good on that promise,  get a hairpiece.  You have so much hair, you don't need that.  The other thing somebody said was  you have to be really careful of your choices with vintage clothing so it doesn't just look like some bygone era. As you become vintage, consider your vintage clothing choices carefully., I would say also, sometimes it's easy to  wear the thing that you looked good in, you know, at a certain decade  and that's not good either. You have to keep moving, but not try to look like the youth. Well, unless you want to, but yes, I know what you're saying, and I will say, you know, this applies to everyone.  Chasing every trend, bad idea. But picking up touches from the now, keeps you, looking vital in some way.  I'm over here in Europe where people by and large have great style and fewer clothes, frankly. The choices up and down the age spectrum are pretty consistent. , it's understanding what you look good in. I was going to say Europeans in general have a better relationship with aging. Oh, for sure. For sure. I mean, it probably depends on the European, but here I've just come out of the gym and , it took me forever to use the sauna with everyone and I thought, Oh, I wish I want this for every girl in the world to see and be seen not in a weird way  but bodies of all kinds up and down the age spectrum. There is such a sense of camaraderie and respect really just seeing different boobs, different butts, different legs, different shoulders, all of this up and down the age spectrum. You really soften to yourself and your fellow woman.  You know, we're all okay, we're all great, we're all fine.  

We really have been sold a bill of goods,  I've  worked with models.

Totally. And models up close are people too and have little peach fuzz on their lip and you know a pimple and they have oddities and it is totally a fallacy that we look like a piece of paper.  And you don't ever see real bodies unless you go to the beach a lot, but even then, the bodies we see are very augmented and performance based. 

I noticed in this conversation and in another conversation  replacing  youthful with vibrant or vivacious or alive,  healthy . It's not about looking young.  Yes,,  it would be great to look young  youth,  it's gone, like, wake up.

Why would I, you know,  I don't look young, I want to look beautiful.  And that definition expands, I think, as you get older, 

How do you  own it for yourself?  Do things, go dancing.  I go to a lot of parties, so  socialize, have fun, flirt with people. 

Move your body. I am really big on building muscle. You're in your forties,   hit the gym, get off the goddamn cardio machines, be strong, be big.

That's the thing.   , fewer reps, heavier weights. Yes. Yes.  Yeah, taking back your strength. What's the most fun thing you've done this summer or that you're going to do? Cause we're right. We're at midsummer right now. Midsommer.

I just came back from Austria. That was really fun.  Went to a birthday party.  Fun consists for me while I'm over here of traveling to new places and staying up on my dancing.  Did you swim in that lake that you sent me a picture of?  I paddleboarded.  Oh, that's nice. Water. Nice.  Water is beautiful. You can drink it. But I am less enthusiastic about being in a bathing suit in front of people.  That's interesting. Wouldn't think that for you. 

I know, because I'm an exhibitionist and I'm in good shape. But, um. No, because you're in good shape.  I can't wait for this podcast to come out. But, um,  Yeah, I'm just kind of like, the skin quality is really getting me. I'm like, why,  why is the skin crinkling over here?  Um, but I'm working on that. I'm working on that.

Yeah, I mean, the fact is that, you know, another person I interviewed, she's talking about, like, it's not all great. You know, the aging thing. It's not like, yay, it's all so wonderful. It's, it's constantly having to figure it out because I don't want to, I don't want to get old. I don't like this. I'm not saying I like it.

I'm trying to figure it out. I don't, I don't like it.  You know? Yeah. I mean, you're dying. So that's.  a bummer,  but you're dying when you're 16, too.  The fact is every day is a day closer to death.    you   maybe you'll be in a better mood about it, or you'll forget about that existential fact if you like your outfit...